A magic system, sometimes called a magical system, is a set of rules that regulate the magical effects that can be produced in a fictional setting. So says Wikipedia. While I’ve penned 27 novels, I’ve never used a magic system before and was excited to learn more about the process. Meeting and chatting with author C.R. Rowenson gave me the perfect opportunity to do just that in the 31st episode of First Draft Friday.
In the 30-minute video chat, we discussed:
What to expect from your novel and magic’s first draft:
- How it’s going to feel (bland, basic and sometimes stupid)
- The truth: it’s a first draft. Distinction is in the details during the rewrite process.
- Don’t sweat it and give the system room to grow.
Details of your magic:
- Presentation / flavor of the magic (how it looks, behaves and is performed)
- Structures and parallels
- Combine with other things
And more, including common mistakes made in magic systems.
Interested in all that great info? Click below to watch our discussion!
Keep scrolling for the full transcript of our talk. If you enjoy the video, please explore our other First Draft Friday chats.
C.R. Rowenson’s website: https://crrowenson.com/
Explore Marlowe (our A.I. manuscript analysis tool): authors.ai/marlowe
Full chat transcript
Alessandra Torre: Hi everyone. This is First Draft Friday. I am your host Alessandra Torre. First Draft Friday is brought to you by Authors AI. And I am so excited today, because we’re going to be talking all about magic systems, which is something that I have no idea whatsoever about, so be prepared for some dumb questions from me. Anyone watching, please chime in your questions here, but I am really excited for this chat and I am joined by author C.R. Rowenson. I hope I pronounced your last name right, Clark, do you want to introduce yourself?
C.R. Rowenson: Yeah, absolutely. So like she said, I’m CR Rowenson, but that’s when you’re talking about my books, when you’re talking about me as a person, it’s just Clark. So I am a freelance developmental editor, writing coach and I write lots of predominantly I write nonfiction for writers about magic systems. So, how to craft them, how to repair them, how to tweak them for your story, how to build limitations. It’s dangerous having me on to talk about magic systems because I will not shut up. So that’s me, in a nutshell, I’ve been obsessed with magic systems pretty much my whole life. Magic systems are how I got into writing, because nobody wanted to hear me talk for five hours about this magic system I made, so I thought I would be clever in hearing it in a story.
Alessandra: I love that and I can’t wait to dive into this. And if you guys that are watching want to know more, you do have a book coming out that’s specifically on magic systems. Is that correct?
C.R. Rowenson: Yes, I do. And I actually have a workbook out at the moment, specifically for building limitations, but the one that’s going to be coming out is the Magic System Blueprint and it’s actually available for pre-order and Amazon right now. And real quick pitch for that; it’s a tool that I’ve developed over the past, like 10 years of working on magic systems to allow you to quickly get a holistic understanding of the major components of your magic and how it fits into your story and your setting.
Alessandra: So when you say a magic system, for those like me, I write romance and suspense, I’ve never used a magic system before. So, what is a magic system and when and how would someone use it in a novel?
C.R. Rowenson: That is a good question that I always forget to cover because I’ve just been embedded in it for so long. So my definition of a magic system is anything beyond our current capability or understanding. It’s a really broad net, but that’s on purpose because to me that then captures technology, that captures traditional magic systems, that captures werewolves, aliens, monsters, anything that is beyond current capability or understanding is magic. And that can be capability or understanding from us as the reader, you as the author or even the characters, it will seem like magic. And you know, that kind of everybody knows Arthur C. Clark’s third law, which any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable for magic. Well, there’s an online comic called Girl Genius, which is a lot of fun. There’s a line in there where they say any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology, which is also true, so they’re all kind of the same thing.
Alessandra: I love that. So I just wrote down that comment, so I’ll have to look it up. Hey Dawn, Hey Zach. And for any of you watching, please don’t be shy. Shout out your questions as they come in the comments box, we’re going to try to answer as many of them as possible. So if with your definition of magic and you and I were chatting pre-call, so that means like if you are writing a vampire book, then you need to figure out in advance what capabilities your vampire is going to have. If you’re writing a sci-fi thriller or techno thriller, then whether you know it or not, you might need to employ a magic system so that you can understand what technology and how it’s going to come into play. Or like my son’s writing a futuristic military thriller, so he probably needs a magic system. So it’s not just wands and fairy dust.
C.R. Rowenson: Yeah. When I say magic, I am referring to the shorthand of basically any of the fantastical elements of your story. because if you want, you can even use this for developing the fantastical pieces of your world itself. That’s really what it’s about is understanding the fantastical elements. And to a certain extent they can all be approached the same. They’re going to feel very different. A technological based-system for your military sci-fi is definitely going to feel different than what you see in Harry Potter or another Wizarding school type thing. But as a creator, you can approach them in similar fashion and you actually need to address the number of the same variables regardless of what you’re doing, which is why I just put it all in one big messy ball.
Alessandra: I love that. So when we were talking through what we were going to talk about today, one thing was what to expect from your first draft. So can you break down what you mean by that? What a first draft is and is that a first draft of a magic system or what you should be thinking of in a first draft of a novel?
C.R. Rowenson: Both. So everybody works a little bit differently and that’s one thing that I just appreciate more and more as I coach people with writing and do developmental editing. So, it’s going to depend on how you work and where you integrate it, but it’s going to be very similar. So when you first write down an idea for a story, I don’t know about everybody else, but for me, I look at that tagline or that summary, I’m just like, “God, that’s stupid.” And everybody’s done that before. It’s done here, here, and here. It feels really generic and dumb, and that’s okay because that tagline isn’t your whole story. And it’s the same thing with your magic system. You’re going to start and be like, “Okay, like I’m going to do the four elements.” Okay, that sounds really stupid. But then by the time you are finished with the final draft of your magic and the final draft of your story, it will be unique because creativity is in combinations and distinctions are in the details. That’s a phrase that I like to throw out there all the time. So, when you are dealing with the first draft, especially…
Alessandra: Can you throw out that phrase one more time? I just want to make…
C.R. Rowenson: Creativity is in combinations and distinction is in the details. So when you’re looking at your story or your magic system and it doesn’t feel distinct, that’s okay because you haven’t gotten to the details yet in your first draft. Whether that means you’re just crafting your magic system first or you are trying to do the story and the magic system at the same time; a lot of times you’re going to look at it and it’s going to feel dumb or it’s going to feel like a blatant rip off of whatever inspired you, and that’s all okay because you’re not finished yet.
Alessandra: So to pause right there, which do you suggest? I’m assuming it’s better to create your magic system first, not as you go with writing. Or is it similar to when someone writes a plot, like we’re either outliners or pantsers, if it’s hard, you know, for one brain to work in a certain fashion?
C.R. Rowenson: Different people need different things. Me personally, I start with the magic systems. And when you’re building a magic system, I always think you need something that I call a seed crystal. It’s the core concept that everything else is going to crystallize around and grow off of. For me, that seed crystal is always the magic system. I’m like, I’m going to do an elemental magic system. I’m going to do one about nanaite, I’m going to do one about magical viruses. And I go from there, I build out the magic system and then that gives me story and world ideas.
Alessandra: That makes sense.
C.R. Rowenson: Not everybody works that way. I was trying to implement that process with a friend of mine who I was also coaching with her, coaching her through her book. And we were just hitting a wall and it wasn’t working until we did a rough plot of her book first, and then started mapping out the magic system. Because then she was able to see like, “OK, I want to do this here. And here’s all the ways I can bring in a magic system to make that happen.”
Alessandra: Yeah, that makes sense. I have a problem or I need to create a problem, how can magic help me? Yeah. So do you often have… going down that thread, I guess, the magic can either work to help or be against your main characters?
C.R. Rowenson: Yeah. So the magic is a tool. It is just like character, plot, structure, theme, genre; it’s another piece of your story. And that’s one of my big frustrations is when I see a magic system that’s just jammed in there to be a magic system… we wanted a magic system, it’s there, done. I like them to matter. I like them to be integrated. So like you don’t just have a character who is unrelated to the theme and the plot and other stuff. That’s pointless. It’s the same thing with your magic system. You want to weave them together. And I don’t know if I actually answer your question there or not.
Alessandra: Well, you did because I really like what you just said, which is that it is like, just as you should focus on your character’s back stories or developing your plot. I really like that it’s not just a handy thing that you toss in, you know, when you need something like suddenly he has this extra ability that we didn’t know of and it comes in perfect timing to save the day?
C.R. Rowenson: And thank you, Dawn. I’m glad you agree with me.
Alessandra: So I love that, and I love that you said it’s a tool. So, when you are creating… the next thing we were going to talk about is areas to change and how to change them. So, what do you mean by areas to change, and can you go into that further?
C.R. Rowenson: Yeah. So for a long time and even still, when most of the time when people talk about magic systems, it’s this weird amorphous thing, right? It’s very similar to genre and how it used to be. I actually really like the elemental genres from writing excuses, the way they break it down is really cool. You should check it out. That’s a whole other side thing, but…
Alessandra: Is that a book you’re recommending?
C.R. Rowenson: Writing Excuses is a podcast that is fantastic. Brandon Sanderson, Mary Robinette, Koal Danwells and Howard Taylor. Season 11 is the one where they talk about elemental genres, favorite season of all time for me. Anyway, it’s hard to process something that’s just like a big, weird mass like that, so I try and break it down. So understanding what those pieces are helps a lot with the building. And then once you know those, those are things you can tweak. And that’s part of what the magic system blueprint is for, but there are a couple main things that even if you aren’t familiar with the rest of the theory that I will just drone on and on about, there are a couple things that are really useful. Like one of the big ones is just presentation. If you take a magic system, we know let’s just take Harry Potter.
You can keep the exact same system. And if you just muddle the presentation, you can end up with something that feels like a unique magic system, it’ll feel similar. So instead of wands and brooms, if we overhaul that and I’m kind of doing this on the fly, but if we overhaul that and just make it – we’re writers, yeah, let’s make it like quills and paper. So it’s the same thing, they still do the expelling disarming effects and decharming and the enchanting, but all of it done is done with quill and paper, where they have to write it down the correct way. Let’s even add origami into it because, you know, creativity and combination. So they have to write it down, they have to fold it in a specific format, and then that generates the spell. We haven’t changed anything else. The entire school now is now understanding your quills, your ink, and how to fold the paper, rather than going through the actual motions and that kind of stuff. So, even something as simple as that can make a huge difference.
Alessandra: Yeah, I like that a lot, and I like how you brought in writing. Is there often a distinct tie to the characters or the plot or the setting when you’re determining those, I guess, I’m not sure if elements is the right word, but the different ways that your magic is going to work?
C.R. Rowenson: That’s one of the ways you can do it. That’s part of what the seed crystal is about for me, that’s the core concept that you’re going to grow everything from really quick chemistry lesson that you didn’t want or ask for. In labs, in industry labs, they will take a tiny moat, because crystals actually can’t grow out of nothing. They have to grow off of a substrate. So they will start with a tiny spec of a crystal, and that actually helps them grow larger, higher purity crystals faster. And that’s kind of what I like to do with the magic systems. So your seed crystal can be written on parchment and quill. It can be like… one magic system I’m still toying with, I don’t know how I’m going to do it, but I want to tie in polymer science, so that like magic is like polymer chains and they end up with magic plastics. If you like buttons, if you like sewing, if you like quilting, if you like paper and stationary, anything like that can be your seed crystal. And when I’m working with people, if you haven’t done a magic system before, I really recommend a seed crystal that you know a lot about. So like you Alessandra…
Alessandra: That was going to be my next question. I was like, there’s no way I could write about polymer, because I mean, just the research involved in me learning enough to write about it intelligently.. But could see if I loved buttons or if I was really involved in horses or something, you know, that would be a much easier place to build my magic from
C.R. Rowenson: I tend to go dark with my themes and stuff, which not everybody likes, but with some of your romantic thrillers, to me, that seems like that would be really ripe for a magic system based on emotional trauma or even emotional abuse and using that as your seed crystal that everything grows around and you can go all kinds of directions. The magic system may be designed to deal with and heal from emotional abuse, or it may be a magic system that is truly terrible and it augments and inflicts emotional trauma. Like, you can go either way, but like that could be a really interesting seed crystal for what I’ve seen from some of your books.
Alessandra: I love that we do have a question from YouTube. So Kit was asking, what do you think of Sanderson’s laws of magic? Do you have your own?
C.R. Rowenson: I love Sanderson’s laws of magic, that’s a big part of how I really got started because I was in school getting a degree in chemical engineering and I read Miss Born and realized like, oh, there are people that’ll actually like magic systems built the way I think. So yeah, I love Sanderson’s laws of magic, they are a really great start. They are kind of guidelines, so the first law of magic for anybody not familiar with it is “Your Ability as an Author.” To solve problems in your story with the magic is directly proportional to the reader’s understanding of said magic. And he talks about hard and soft magic systems. I think there’s an extra access that is rational and irrational. But the point is, like that law is essentially a law of foreshadowing applied to your magic. And his other laws are very similar. Okay, so I’m going off the short version. I love them. They’re great. I have a bunch of stuff that I have continued from and built off of some of Sanders and stuff and some other things that I feel a little more unique to me in the way I think.
Alessandra: I don’t know if you haven’t broken down as laws, but you cover that in your upcoming book.
C.R. Rowenson: Yeah, I think less in terms of laws and more in terms of tools and structures and categorizations; that’s just how I think. I have a hard time coming up with a rule of like thou shall or it is this way. I have a much easier time being like, okay, here’s sort of the system, and here’s all the little gears and knobs and stuff that we can tweak and push and pull, and here’s what they’re going to do. So, let me explain this dashboard to you. And that’s essentially what the magic system blueprint is. It’s like a soundboard where you have a bunch of knobs and dials that you can change between settings, and that’ll tell you a lot about how your system’s going to work.
Alessandra: And just to circle back to that first law that you talked about me coming at it from a non-magic background. So, if you’re going to have him fly at the end to solve some problem, you have to introduce the fact that that character can fly earlier in the book.
C.R. Rowenson: Yes.
Alessandra: That makes sense.
C.R. Rowenson: Man, I love talking about magic systems, it’s a problem. It’s serious problem. There’s a whole thing about, I mean, you said you have a lot of like debut authors, people who are trying to get a feel for the… Okay, I think this is worth the tangent. So I personally draw a distinction between problems and plot problems, because you can have a problem that could… you could have a situation come up that is potentially very problematic. That doesn’t mean you are going to give it much narrative weight, and that means it may be a negligible plot problem. The example I like to give is in Glen Cook’s black company, there’s a chapter where they deal with multiple ambushes and they just deal with them very quickly and effectively through the combination of skill and magic. So in reality, an ambush is a serious problem, but in the book he spent like a paragraph on it, so it’s a very minor plot problem. As opposed to an enemy force marching on your capital; that’s the problem that they’re facing over the course of the entire book. And then if they just suddenly solve it with something that we have never seen before, that is immensely frustrating and unsatisfying. So the bigger your plot problem, the more of the foreshadowing you need to give to the solution.
Alessandra: OK. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And now I’m going to go on a tangent with this question, but how I would think that if I’m a new author or if I’m going to start using magical elements, how do you introduce those to the reader without just dumping a bunch of info on them? So do you slowly introduce a magical element a time and a natural use, you know, early on in the book? Or do you, I don’t know, I just have a conversation with the guys, like I can do all this cool stuff, you know, and no one else can, or certain people can. So, how do you share all of that information and communicate to the reader?
C.R. Rowenson: That is an excellent question. And this is part of the reason I love to talking about magic systems — most of what I talk about with magic systems is applicable to writing in general and vice versa. And I find that very useful because sometimes that helps people understand parts of their story in ways they couldn’t until I presented it as part of the magic system. So, this is a case I have found very useful to people; you want to present information about the magic system in whatever way is most natural. That’s really how you stop an info dump on your magic system. If you have a character who is trying to solve a problem with their magic, especially if you’re doing deep third point of view, like you’re really in the character’s thoughts and head, if the magic involves a lot of planning and analysis, they’re going to be thinking through all the steps. So them thinking through the steps is your chance to paint a picture of some of the rules and mechanics of how it works to the reader.
And the exact opposite is if it’s very instinctual and then they’re sitting there ranting to themselves about like, ah, yes, force vector is over here. And if I throw with this velocity, like, if captain America was ranting about physics equations while he threw his shield; that’s not a good way to communicate hit the magic system. Now, if it’s Dr. Strange, who is having to plan a spell, that is much more natural. So finding the right ways to make it natural in the setting where somebody is curious, somebody is asking questions, somebody is discovering, those are all great ways to start to introduce it. Or even just having them use it and explain exactly what happens, and from there, the reader will start to infer information about the magic system. And that’s only tricky depending on how rational or irrational your magic system is. Because if you set it up so that they infer a bunch of in information, a bunch of rules and patterns, and then you just straight up break those rules and patterns later; they might be a little frustrated. So it’s a balancing act, but in general, you want to present it in the way that feels natural to the flow of the story. And that’s true with any kind of setting info dump, plot info dump; it’s got to feel natural. If it feels natural, the reader won’t notice, if it doesn’t feel natural, they absolutely will.
Alessandra: Yeah, and I would think there’s also a struggle with at least, you know, when I’m talking to my son about his writing, he knows so much about it. And I don’t normally write in this world or in this genre, but I’m like, gosh, I think the reader only needs to know like this much of all of this stuff that you know, because it could be an entire book just sharing all that information. So, how much do you go into like how the magic came to be and how it actually works deep inside and that sort of thing, and where it originated? And is that the same thing? Like you share what’s natural when it’s natural?
C.R. Rowenson: Yeah. You want to share what’s natural when it’s natural, and if there’s information you want to get across, you have to find a way to make it natural. I know that’s a…
Alessandra: No, that makes perfect sense. So, it’s the same. I do want to make sure that anyone… because this is such an interesting topic and we only have six and a half minutes. So if you guys have any questions, I know we just got one from someone on Facebook, I can’t see their name, but they said, what’s your advice on using magical elements in magical realism fiction? So first dumb question, what is magical realism fiction, and then can you answer there question?
C.R. Rowenson: OK. So magical realism, there’s a lot of debate about exactly what that means. Some people magical realism is about blending a magic system into reality, like into our world so that you can’t necessarily tell the two a part, an example of that would be if things, and I’m not saying this to upset anybody, but if prayer or something like that did have direct magical effects, that would be an example of magical realism if it was subtle and non-obvious. Other people think magical realism is just building a magic system in such a way that it could realistically happen. So, tying it to physics, tying it to the nature of the world to be like, yeah. So in theory, if this thing was possible, then yeah, they would be able to do all of these things.
So depending on what you’re going for my advice for using magical elements and magical realism, I think is probably just going to be go with less than you think you need. And this is actually what I was going to say with regards to info dumping too is especially with info dumping, go with much, much less than you need and make sure you have beta readers. It’s better for them to be confused the first time and then provide just enough clarity for them to understand like, “Oh, this is magical realism, not just reality or to see like, oh, okay, okay, this is how it works.” It’s much better to do that than to beat people over the head with it and then run the risk of somebody not catching it.
Alessandra: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. And someone else from Facebook said when writing about common creatures, trolls, elves, leprechaun, can we make them the way we want for our story or do we need to stick to what people already know about them?
C.R. Rowenson: Okay. My favorite answer, it depends. That’s my answer for pretty much everything. And I know some people get really sick of it, but it is all about what you want to do with those creatures and why you’re including them. I mean, come on, there’s a whole old genre or subgenre now of fairytale retellings. And the point of those is to take something we know and twist it in a way that’s unfamiliar. So, maybe that’s what you’re doing. Maybe you are relying on the trope because you want to lessen the learning curve. In fact, that can be really useful. It’s something I really came to appreciate when trying to write flash fiction of like a thousand words, you have to rely on concepts that are already embedded in people’s brains, because you don’t have time to explain, so depending on what you’re doing, those can be very beneficial that way. And you can also completely tweak them and combine them and change them into something completely new to the point where you say, yeah, these were inspired by elves and everybody will read it and be like, “Oh, I didn’t get that like at all.” And that’s a good place to be because you have made it truly your own at that point. But not everything you have to do; you don’t have to do everything to be truly your own. Like, it’s fine to take inspiration and that kind of stuff.
Alessandra: I love that. And anyone – final questions now is your last time to shout it out. Clark, is there anything that really bugs you? And I know you’ve touched on a couple of your pet peeves with magic systems, but is there any Cardinal mistakes that a new author or someone who’s jumping into magic systems or even someone who writes them should avoid when creating a magic system or when telling a story with magical elements other than what we already covered?
C.R. Rowenson: Don’t make people overpowered.
Alessandra: Oh, I love that.
C.R. Rowenson: That’s one of the biggest ones that…
Alessandra: So just like one or two special elements or…?
C.R. Rowenson: Or, and it’s less about the number and more about the strength so it breaks immersion for me when we have people who can shatter the world and yet they’re not the ruling class. Or they’re just going about doing their business or you have it to the point where the character isn’t challenged by anything because they can just blow it up or use an illusion magic to make it go away. Don’t make people overpowered.
Alessandra: Do you need to give them an Achilles’ heel or just give them limitations to their abilities?
C.R. Rowenson: I think in general – OK, so if I was going to give a rule for people to follow, it would be pull back the magnitude. So, decrease the power of what they can do. So if they can do telekinesis, make it so they can throw a person, but not a car. If they can summon objects out of nowhere, make it so they can summon a coin, but not a gun. Just scale things back.
Alessandra: I love that.
C.R. Rowenson: Yeah, so scale back the magnitude, that’s where I would recommend starting and you can always add more if you need it. And Jody, you did ask about my book. Yes, it is on Amazon. It is up for pre-order. It is the Magic System Blueprint.
Alessandra: When does it release in case they’re watching this video, you know, we get a lot of people watch it a year later? When does the book come out?
C.R. Rowenson: I was hoping to have it released like early November, and then life is life and it’s been…
Alessandra: Sometime, maybe in 2021 we think?
C.R. Rowenson: It will be in 2021. I set the pre or order to come out no later than January 1st and I will hold to that. I just can’t tell you exactly when in November or December.
Alessandra: And did you say you have a workbook that’s available now?
C.R. Rowenson: I do. It’s called Restrictions May Apply and it is also on Amazon. It has 15 exercises to help you identify and build limitations for your magic system.
Alessandra: Fantastic. And I’ll add that if anyone’s watching this, I’ll put it in the blog post later and let me put up your website so that they can follow you. And so, if you want to know more check out crrowenson.com. And you also have a YouTube channel, is that correct?
C.R. Rowenson: I do. You can find me on YouTube as the Magic Engineer, or if you go to my blog on my website, my articles are also videos so you can find the YouTube channel that way.
Alessandra: I love that this has been one of my favorite chats that we’ve had on First Draft Friday, so I really appreciate you coming in. This is such an interesting topic and I love that it can be applied to so many different genres, not just, you know, wizards. I do have a random question and I hate to put you on the spot with this, but I’m curious because we’re big… my husband and I are big bang theory fans and we always watch an episode where they talk about mummies and zombies are the same thing and and they’re arguing about it. So would you consider mummies and zombies the same thing in terms of coming back to life and going after people?
C.R. Rowenson: I would say no. Well, wait, wait, it depends on which version of zombie you’re working with. Because if we’re going with the religion-based connections, then I would say they’re the same because they are both ritual, spiritual-based reanimation of the dead. If we’re going with the standard zeitgeist version of zombies versus actual mummies, I think they’re different, because one is ritual-based and one is highly pathogen-based.
Alessandra: I love that answer. Very intelligent answer, and also falls into your favorite answer, which is, it depends, so that’s a great… So zombies are – would that be considered magic? Like if something, you know, if it is pathogen-based or whatever else, is that magic because it’s different than our world as we understand it right now?
C.R. Rowenson: Yes. So just because it’s a magic system doesn’t mean it needs to be complex. The magic system may be very simple in terms of there’s a virus that kills people and then reanimate their body; that’s all that zombies are. When you look at a lot of monster movies, those are very simple magic systems that are just restrained to the creature itself. That’s the entirety of the magic system. Alien is a good example of that.
Alessandra: And so aliens are also magic, even if they don’t necessarily have special powers.
C.R. Rowenson: It’s more of an issue if you want to go into strange biology and special powers, because then that’s when you’re stepping outside of our capability or understanding if you’re going with Star Trek aliens where they’re basically human and that’s pretty much it, then you don’t necessarily have a magic system. They’re just like people from a different country at that point.
Alessandra: With a different culture, yeah, that makes perfect sense. All right, sorry for that final tangent, but thank you guys so much. If you enjoyed today’s show, please like, and subscribe on whatever platform you’re watching on and please join us for other First Draft Fridays. We’re here every two weeks and would love to talk about more elements of craft. If you haven’t already checked out Marlowe, she is our fiction loving artificial intelligence, and she would love to read your manuscript and give you feedback in just a few minutes. So you can check out her at authors.ai she has a free report if you want to jump right in and see how she works or you can check out her really super cool pro-report. So thank you all. Thank you so much, Clark. It was fantastic to have you here.
C.R. Rowenson: Thanks for having me. It was great.
Alessandra: Yeah, we’ll see you guys in two weeks.