On a recent edition of First Draft Friday, I talked about writing crime fiction series with USA Today bestselling author Pamela Fagan Hutchins. We discussed how to write a compulsively readable crime fiction series.
Here are some key takeaways from my conversation with Pamela:
What is crime fiction?
Pamela defines crime fiction as a broad genre driven by an underlying crime, engaging readers with questions about who committed the crime, why, and how they will be brought to justice. This genre encompasses various subgenres, including traditional mysteries, thrillers, legal thrillers, noir fiction and spy thrillers. According to Pamela, crime fiction is characterized by its darker and grittier elements, although some cozy mysteries are increasingly incorporating these features.
Genre expectations and protagonists
Pamela explains that crime fiction typically features protagonists who are involved in law enforcement or have a significant stake in solving crimes. These characters range from amateur sleuths to professional crime fighters, such as private investigators, judges, and prosecutors. This involvement ensures a more believable narrative, as repeatedly encountering murders or crimes can be challenging to justify for amateur sleuths.
Plotting vs. pantsing
Pamela emphasizes the importance of plotting in crime fiction. While she has experimented with both plotting and pantsing, she advocates for at least a semi-structured approach to avoid extensive rewrites. Crime fiction is plot-driven and having a clear outline helps maintain coherence and pace.
Character development and damage
A compelling crime fiction series relies heavily on well-developed characters. Pamela highlights the importance of understanding your protagonist’s “damage” – their past traumas or experiences that drive their actions and motivations. This depth adds complexity and relatability to the character. For example, a protagonist who witnessed their father’s murder may be driven by a need for justice and personal redemption.
Crafting the villain
Creating a layered and complex villain is crucial for a gripping crime fiction series. Pamela suggests giving your villain a detailed backstory and motivations, even if these details are not immediately revealed to the reader. Understanding your villain’s “damage” and motivations helps create a more believable and engaging antagonist, adding depth to the narrative.
Plotting twists and maintaining pace
Twists are essential in crime fiction, keeping readers engaged and surprised. Pamela outlines her process of planning twists, often incorporating them into her initial outline. She prefers to give readers a fair shot at figuring out the mystery, placing subtle clues throughout the narrative. However, the goal is to surprise without blindsiding the reader, ensuring the twist feels earned and satisfying.
Balancing realism and suspension of disbelief
Pamela advises writers to push the boundaries of realism while avoiding the impossible. Consulting experts, such as law enforcement professionals, can help ensure authenticity without compromising creativity. The aim is to maintain a balance where the narrative remains engaging and believable, without venturing into implausibility.
Editing and revising
Pamela’s editing process involves writing a complete first draft quickly, often within 30 days, then refining it extensively. She focuses on maintaining pace, cutting unnecessary details, and ensuring the plot remains compelling. Feedback from editors and beta readers is crucial, helping her identify areas for improvement and ensuring the final product is polished and engaging.
It was a great discussion, one you won’t want to miss! Click below to watch our 30-minute recording and hear the questions we answered from the live audience. Keep scrolling if you’d prefer to read the transcript.
More info:
Try out Marlowe, our A.I., for a critique of your novel: authors.ai/marlowe/
Check out Pamela Fagan Hutchins’s books on BingeBooks.
Enjoy the show? Check out our past First Draft Friday episodes.
TRANSCRIPT:
Alessandra Torre: Hello everyone, and welcome to First Draft Friday. And today I am joined by Pamela Fagan Hutchins. We’re going to be talking all about how to write a crime fiction series and what you need to know to dive into this genre, which is one that I have wandered around the edges of that I haven’t really ever gone into. So I’m so excited for this conversation. Thank you, Pamela, for being here today. Do you want to just give the audience a quick introduction to yourself?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Well, thank you for having me, Alessandra. And I am a crime fiction writer, who’s dabbled in all, I guess, flavors of crime fiction. And I live in central northern Wyoming, so the bright glare behind me is snow glare. And I have a podcast called Crime and Wine where I talk with crime fiction writers. So while I’m not very murdery in real life, I tend to be murdery on the page and my show.
Alessandra Torre: That’s the best place to be murdery. And I’m seeing a lot of hellos from different places Los Angeles, Ontario and Saint Louis. So I think you have some fellow snow bunnies. But when we say crime fiction what is the definition of crime fiction? Is it fiction with crime?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Fiction that’s driven by an underlying crime, so that you have a reader who’s asking who did it, why did they do it? And, and how are they going to be brought to justice? And really, it encompasses a lot of subgenres, everything from a traditional whodunit like a mystery to thrillers and suspense, legal thrillers, noir fiction, spy, thrillers and things like that, but things that are driven by that underlying crime.
Alessandra Torre: Okay, so it’s really like an almost top-level genre. Are cozy mysteries under crime fiction or is crime fiction more gritty?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: That is such a good question because I don’t know if you guys have noticed this, but more and more of the cozy fiction that you read, the definition is expanded to include some grittier elements. So I don’t want to say no. It doesn’t include cozy, because some of the cozy writers are getting away with some fun, gritty stuff, but it does tend to be darker and grittier than some of the more traditional cozy you would think about.
Alessandra Torre: And are there any genre expectations that we need to be aware of going into it? Like, is it typically an amateur sleuth? Are there any things like that that need to fall into place? What is the standard crime fiction novel?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: I think that it can extend from an amateur sleuth who has a strong stake in solving a crime in a highly participative way, but more traditionally, it’s going to be somebody who is a crime fighter or law enforcement or a crime solver. So somebody in that whole realm of, whether it’s a private investigator on this often all the way through, even, you know, judges, prosecutors and things like that, and your traditional law enforcement in the middle, driven by somebody with a really high stake in solving the crime.
Alessandra Torre: And just so we know a little bit more about you and your process. How many books have you written? And are you a pantser or a plotter? And are all of your books in series or are they standalones?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: So much in that question. Okay, so I’ve written 24 novels that are published, but I have two that are currently written and sitting and waiting in the production line for a three book release with Bookouture Hachette. I have been a pantser in my past. But what I found is when you’re writing crime fiction, you can become so unhappy with yourself so quickly if you pants it. It’s very plot driven, and while you can do it, you’re going to spend a lot more time on the back end with the rewrite. I have become a converted semi-plotter. So I do my best, and sometimes I throw in the towel and just start writing. But I keep going back to the idea that the plot has to make sense.
Alessandra Torre: Yeah. That makes perfect sense. And are most of your books stand-alones or are they in a series?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: They’re all in a series in some format. I find that people in this space enjoy being able to keep going with the protagonist and some great characters, right? You know, people keep reading great characters. So anywhere from a short to three books to as long right now as seven and and the sky’s the limit as how long I go in a series, if people kept enjoying a good character with a good crime narrative that was evolving and driving the series.
Alessandra Torre: It sounds like the protagonist is typically someone in the field. It makes sense that they are encountering dead bodies or mysteries or that sort of thing. So.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Right. I did Amateur Sleuth for a lot of books and it was harder, you know, how do I keep justifying this person encountering another murder? It wasn’t cozy and it was semi gritty in it. And, you know, sometimes you start stretching the grounds of credulity. So, yeah, it’s a lot easier when you have somebody in the field.
Alessandra Torre: Yeah, 100%. I write psychological thrillers and it’s so hard to write in series because it’s. Or domestic suspense because what are the chances that, like, a normal couple is going to come in contact with another serial killer or something?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Exactly. I married another serial killer with multiple families, you know? Nope. Not happening.
Alessandra Torre: So, so let’s talk a little bit about plot versus characters, and we kind of have a question from an audience member that is in that realm, which is “How can we then, as writers, stay focused on our protagonist? So, outlining or by not pantsing?”
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Yeah.
Alessandra Torre: Can you walk through kind of a little bit of your process? And when you’re thinking about characters and when you’re thinking about plot and how much pre-planning you do before you start to write.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Well, first of all, hi, Chris. And that’s a great question. It is for me about becoming involved mentally with the character before I ever get to the point of outlining and not just the character, but where they’re from, so that I know what’s driving them and the people around them. If you know your setting, you know a lot more about your community of potential villains as well as your protagonist and the people who might help them solve crime. And in thinking about that protagonist, as I’m getting to the outline stage, I’m thinking about something too, because I’m thinking about a series that’s going to drive their actions over multiple books. And so that gets to what’s their damage, right? You know, what is it that brings them, to the table every day to solve an old crime or a new crime and keeps motivating them, and yet also keeps haunting them and tripping them up and giving them conflicting motives and all the things that our troubled past (and we all have a little of it) can do. And so for me, focusing on the protagonist, just really getting to know the world that they’re in, their damage, their setting, the people that are going to be around them, their motivation, and then taking it from there with an outline.
Alessandra Torre: Damage is a new word that I haven’t really heard a lot. Are you referring to their flaws, or are you referring to their motivations? Or what is damage?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Their past. What is it about something that has informed the character? And by that I mean the human characteristics that they are? Because of something horrible that’s happened to them before. It makes it more interesting, more complex. It gives you motivations that can be very sympathetic. For instance, the series I’m writing right now, the protagonist, her father ran bars and was murdered before her eyes when she was 11 years old, and she was able to do nothing to stop it. And so that seminal moment in her past drives a lot of why she wants to solve crimes, which ones she wants to solve, who she feels sympathetic for, and the times in which she’s going to act differently than we want her to, or that law enforcement wants her to. So it creates some conflict with the system in herself. And so, you know, if you can get some deep damage that drives someone into law enforcement, but it also creates tension with it at the same time, you’ve got a lot to work with.
Alessandra Torre: I love that. When we’re thinking about characters, we have the protagonist. And like you said, they’re damaged. And then we also have the villain. So can you talk a little bit about when you’re creating a villain and are you also creating their damage and kind of what that process looks like?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Absolutely. And for me, even though we may not agree with the villain’s motivations, he or she has to have one for what they do. You know, a typical crime, you know, just straight up shoot em up, love, lust, loathing loot, you know, as motivations. But if you dive deeper into a villain that might drive your crime narrative or take you into multiple books. You need a little damage there, too. And you need to know it and understand it, or uncover it slowly as you go. Everybody’s got a backstory, and your villain needs to be one of the most layered and complex, at least what you know about it. You know, when you’re writing.
Alessandra Torre: So you ran through what sounded like a checklist. Oh, my God, some of it started with Ls.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Yeah.
Alessandra Torre: What was that? That you.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Love. Lust. Loathing and Loot. I’m trying to hold my fingers correctly to show that which are very often motivations for someone to commit the act of murder, of killing another person. Unless. Well, I mean, even if they’re hired to do it, then it is loot, right? They’re in it for the money. But why do people kill? And those are the ones that are always rattling in the back of my head. I love you, I loathe you, I…
Alessandra Torre: Love and lust. I mean, I know the difference between love and lust, but for them to be separate categories, is it maybe just lusting after someone’s lifestyle? It’s not necessarily.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: It can be. It can be. It can be Lust with a capital sexy, or it can be lust with, it being jealous. Whereas love can be towards people you’re not sexually involved with as well and feel betrayed by. You know, you could love someone and feel that they betrayed you without, that’s, or.
Alessandra Torre: Kill for them.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Or kill for them. Right, right, right.
Alessandra Torre: Okay.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Well, it’s fun stuff.
Alessandra Torre: I know, I’m so excited. OK. And let me think if I had any other questions about villains. So obviously their motivation. And then. Oh, you mentioned, especially if it’s over several books. So, how does that work if you have the same villain over several books? Or what is the conclusion to the first book or second book? Are you almost catching them? Then they get away and it’s a cliffhanger or what? How does that kind of plotline look?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: It can be almost catching them, and then getting away. It can be layers of villains. You can have an ultimate villain. And that as you uncover the act or in a particular crime, it reveals to you that there is someone else pulling the strings behind that person and that you work your way towards getting to an ultimate villain. Do you remember the series? And I’m going to refer to the television version of Bones. From a few years back. I loved this series. She was Temp. I see I’m so bad on the fly, remembering character names and things like that.
Alessandra Torre: I’ve never seen the show, so.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: So I could make it all up down here. Okay. But basically she kept running into the same villain and they would think he was dead and they vanquished him. But, he got away and he was really alive. And so you had that resolution to a particular episode that you were looking for, or even a season, you know, if you were following a whole season and yet you somehow live to fight another day with that character, or he broke out of jail or something where he kept coming back. Ultimately, I think they carried it through 3 or 4 seasons where this guy kept coming back and it was effective. And if you think about a written crime series that way, you can do similar things. If you’ve got a really good Hannibal Lecter-type bad guy, why wouldn’t you want to keep revisiting that? And also, if you’re thinking about ties to your underlying crime narrative or the damage your protagonist is seeking to fix in themselves, like, say, they maybe they or someone else in their life is a victim of a crime long ago. And you can start, you know, taking your series in a direction where that villain may play a role in that crime as well, or one of the other villains you uncover. And so you can do some series extension this way and keep it within a world of characters that people love to love and love to hate.
Alessandra Torre: I love that. And speaking of characters, Tiffany from YouTube said, “How big of a backstory do you write on your characters?”
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Hey, Tiffany. Well, it depends. I’m a lawyer. Can you tell with that answer? It depends. Just came out immediately. So to me, what it depends on is how much of that backstory needs to be in the story and at what time. So for somebody that is a major character, you’re going to be doling out bits of backstory over the books, you know, till the end of time, but you maybe have a minor character that is a grocery store clerk that’s always surly, and that becomes a running gag, and you just need just a teeny, teeny little bit on the surface for the reader to know enough and want to keep seeing that character. You know, maybe a sentence, but you may need to know a lot more about that character to write them well. And so there’s what’s not on the page. What do you know about your character? And if you’re really good at not pantsing, what do you commit to writing in some sort of Series Bible for yourself so that you really know those characters, and that may be a lot more.
Alessandra Torre: Yeah, that makes sense. And, talking about characters and what makes sense. Let’s talk a little bit about realistic versus unrealistic. So I have kind of two different paths to take on this. There’s like plot lines versus unrealistic. And how often is this amateur sleuth going to run into some, you know, run into a brutal crime? But also like specific details, of the, you know, of the investigation of the crime scene, things like that. So first, can we talk about plots like, does it ever come into mind, or is that something we should keep in mind? Is it how much we suspend reality when we’re creating plots?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Pamela Fagan Hutchins’ Theory. Take it or leave it is.
Alessandra Torre: It depends.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Yeah. It depends. You want to push the bounds, but you don’t want to drive readers away by going over the edge. So I’m always like, I have a good friend that is a police chief and he’s my go to person for read throughs for authenticity and for accuracy. And I always tell him don’t critique me for coming close to the edge. Just tell me when it’s impossible. Or tell me when you don’t yet see that it’s possible. And we can talk about the small, very small changes I’m willing to make to make it possible because I want it to not be the everyday. If it was just the everyday, well, that might be boring. And we don’t ever want to be boring. We want to look for the for the things with the most potential for being interesting and twisting and and being on the edge.
Alessandra Torre: And this question applies to that. What is your editing process like? So when you get feedback, is it “when in doubt, cut it out?” Or, you know, is there another formula? How extensive are your rewrites?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: My process is I write a first draft, and then I go back and make it the very best I can do, and then I give it to my editor, who then will come back and tell me everything that I’m going to think about or examine. And when in doubt as to whether I’m able to maintain pace. And when in doubt as to whether it’s something that we really need to know right now about that character. I cut it out because with crime fiction, pace is really an issue. You’re looking out for any book, right? You’re looking for a compulsively page-turning book. You want great characters, but it’s a plot-driven book. The series may be character-driven. You may keep coming back for characters, but you need a plot that turns the page with, you know, mini cliffhangers at chapter ends and with twists along the way. And you have to cut things out for the sake of pace sometimes. But I am pretty stubborn when it comes to Will you change this? And it’s usually, “I don’t want to. Make me. Please explain why.” And then if it really makes good sense, then anything for the sake of a good book. I’ve been known to cut many thousands of words when I was headed in the wrong direction.
Alessandra Torre: What is your average book length? Just so we have an idea.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: The series I’m writing now, 90,000 words. The last series I wrote about 80,000.
Alessandra Torre: Okay, so they’re still pretty meaty.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Yeah, I’m not cutting them. I’m not going that the short, you know, 65,000 words. Right. I would love to. I just can’t.
Alessandra Torre: I think readers prefer a more complex plot with meat.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: I agree with that. And I’ll tell you that one thing that my editor said when I turned in a book that was 105,000, she said, 100,000 is your limit. I love books that are longer than that. I’m like you, I like a complex, meaty book. But she said there’s a magic about putting it in paperback. Just stop. Pamela. Save it for the next book.
Alessandra Torre: And I think you can get meaty. I mean, if you can’t accomplish it in 90, 100,000 words, then yeah. Unless it’s The Da Vinci Code and then we’ll let him do anything you want.
Alessandra Torre: Yeah. I love this next question from a Facebook user. Their name isn’t displayed, but I had just written it down while you were talking. Can we talk about twists? So how do you incorporate your twist? Do you hide your killer or villains? Do you outline them? And put them in after. That’s interesting. So what? How do you perform a twist?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: So I’m going to take it in reverse order on those questions. And that is if I want my life to be relatively easy in writing this book and not spend the next year writing it because my deadlines are faster than that. My deadlines are as fast as I can deliver, and then they squeeze the next deadline down. So maybe I should slow down. But I do put them in an outline. But if I say that a book is weak in spots, then sometimes you end up going back after the fact and putting them after. As to whether I hide them or show them, I have multiple points of view, and I am in the series I’m writing. I have points of view that include, at least to a certain extent, the killer’s perspective and also some victim perspective. And I don’t always want the readers to know the identity of either of those. Sometimes it doesn’t matter. Sometimes. You can, you can know. And that’s all right. But I tend to not reveal that until I have to. And if I can’t keep their identity hidden, then I question whether it’s time for that point of view to appear yet. And then you’re also trying to save something for the very end. Even after you know who they are, then what is the final twist that will come about. So as a result, sometimes I stagger timelines to achieve this.
Alessandra Torre: So. I don’t think this is a controversial question, but now I have changed my opinion on this over the years, and I waffle back and forth on it all the time. How do you gauge how much information to give the reader? And do you think that the reader needs to have a fair shot at figuring out the mystery or the twist on, you know, on their own, or are you OK blindsiding them?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: I like them to have a fair shot. The way that I look at it is, there needs to be enough information in the first… I like it to be within the first chapter that if you went back and you were like, why didn’t I figure that out? And you went back and let me see. You can see, OK, the clues that you missed. You didn’t just spring somebody on me, like at the end I’d never heard of. They were there in plain sight the whole time, and I just didn’t have enough information yet. Or I didn’t figure it out. You know, your protagonist isn’t figuring it out either. And so I like for them to be able to figure it out in conjunction with the protagonist, but not to feel tricked. I’ve gotten mad before. I remember listening to a book. I’m not going to say the name because it’s an author I respect, but I was listening to a book on audio while I was riding a bike, and I was so mad when I got to the point where it was something that felt blindsiding that, I mean, I got off my bike and I paced around and I was like, how dare you? You wasted my time. Anyway, so I remember that experience and because it’s my personal preference, I try not to do that to people.
Alessandra Torre: OK. Rob from Facebook has a fantastic question. And he said, “Thinking about the idea of layers in a series to uncover the master villain, what are your thoughts on whether the master villain should be an unseen hand, i.e. not physically present and seen in the earlier books, or a character presented in the earlier stories where the main character doesn’t yet see that that person is the ultimate bad guy or girl?”
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: I think you could do both, and I think they’re both good ideas. So it can be somebody that you see in plain sight, but have no idea yet, as your protagonist does not know that they are anything but what they appear to be on the surface. But I am definitely outlining a series. And by the way, I don’t just outline the books, I outline the series to make sure that I can see where it’s going at least the next three books coming. So when I’m outlining the series and I’m heading down the path towards a particular villain, maybe there’s somebody that we haven’t been introduced to yet, but we’ve been introduced to the people that will introduce us to them, and we are aware that they should exist or someone like them within this setting. So I don’t blindside even with those characters. But we don’t have to know early in the series that they’re bad yet.
Alessandra Torre: I love that. We have so many great questions. We’re going to try to get to all of your questions. Just so everybody knows, we do have five minutes left. So if you have questions, don’t hold back. If we can’t get to everyone, I apologize in advance. Peg from YouTube said, “How long do you spend on the first draft?”
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Peg, when I first started writing, I did NaNoWriMo, National Novel Writing Month, and that idea that I can do a shitty first draft in 30 days stayed with me, as did Anne Lamont’s premise that you, you know, bird by bird, that you don’t you don’t have anything to edit unless you have a shitty first draft. So I will try to do them in 30 days. And so my first drafts will tend to be 50 to 70,000 words. And they look like it looks like a lot of dialogue. Right. So you’re through and you come back in and you’re layering in the description and a little more of the backstory, to get up to its full length and cutting out the things that aren’t necessary. So 30 days, and that’s all I give myself.
Alessandra Torre: So how does that work? Do you write five days a week? Do you write in long bunches of time? Do you write in sprints? What is that process?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: I try to write five days a week, and I write in the afternoons. And I know my pace, you know, when I’m cranking and I try to write, even if it’s bad. You know what I mean? Like when you’re looking at it going, this is wooden, this is stupid or yeah, blah blah blah, blah, blah blah. And you keep typing. So if I’m falling behind, it’s all bets are off and it’s seven days a week and I’m a terrible procrastinator, so that always happens the last two weeks.
Alessandra Torre: Yeah, I love that. So, someone from Facebook said, “What point of view do you write in first, second or third? I’ve noticed books these days have been in first. Do editors have a preference?”
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: It depends. And I’ve done, I’ve done both. And, I’ve done past versus present tense to try to create different feelings in the books too. And I just try to think about the protagonist and the type of or the POV character and the type of feeling, and closeness that I want to achieve. With my amateur sleuth, I tended to write in first person, and it was more chatty, and you were closer in. And with my law enforcement, I tend to step back and be a little bit more third person. But, you know, you can switch up within a book. You can have a villain you’re doing in first person or a victim in first person or things like that. And I find that the editors I’ve worked with have wanted third person, but domestic suspense and things like that I think you want closer to the character. So it just really depends where you’re falling on the spectrum.
Alessandra Torre: It’s funny when you said “Do editors. I assume this author’s talking about traditional editors and most traditionally published books are in third person. But it’s also changing with psychological suspense. A lot of times that’s in first person. And then very rarely do I see a book written in second person. But then occasionally one comes along and it’s fantastic. And if you haven’t read You by Carolyn Kepnes, it’s fantastic. It’s what the Netflix show is based on. So anyone watching, it’s a really great book to read, but it’s also intimidating because I was like, oh, this is so cool. But another thing about Point of View is also, I think, how much you want to hide because you were talking about, writing from the killer’s point of view. And I have often written my killers in first person if I want to hide their gender.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Yeah.
Alessandra Torre: If I want to keep that a secret, moving to first person is much easier because it’s really hard to write in third person and not make it obvious you’re trying to hide their gender. Because then they go, why is she trying to hide their gender? This must be a female killer, you know? So, I’ll lean on that a lot of times.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: And I loved You and the second-person aspect, and I was intimidated by it. And I enjoy reading both first and third person. I enjoy writing both. I’m not as crazy about omniscience because I find myself trying to decide if it was necessary and, like, wait, why did we switch? I’m not smart enough for this. Somebody make it stop, you know? Anyway.
Alessandra Torre: I love that, we only have 30 seconds left, so, unfortunately, those are all the questions that we’ll be able to cover today, but, if they’re if they’re interested in reading one of your books or one of your series, where would you suggest they start?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: My latest release is called Big Horn. It’s the first on a legal mystery or legal thriller series set in Wyoming with Jen Harrington, the protagonist. I think that’s a good place to start.
Alessandra Torre: Perfect. And, is that wide or in Kindle Unlimited?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: It’s in Kindle Unlimited and every other format.
Alessandra Torre: Perfect. And, do you also teach classes or courses in this topic?
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: I do occasionally. I tend to go and do those live at the library or things like that, but I will live stream them when I do it. So if you follow my Facebook page, you can catch the Crime and Wine podcast.
Alessandra Torre: Crime and Wine. That was what it is. I’m sorry. I knew there was something I was going to mention where they could learn more. So Crime and Wine is a podcast, and they can find it on.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Pamela Fagan Hutchins Facebook page or my website. PamelaFaganHutchins.com. Every podcast source you can imagine, live streams on Facebook, YouTube, etc..
Alessandra Torre: Perfect. All right. Thank you all. Thank you so much to everyone in the audience. You had such fantastic questions today. And thank you for joining us live. And thank you so much, Pamela, for, for sharing all of this fantastic information about writing crime fiction.
Pamela Fagan Hutchins: Thank you guys. Great questions.
